The person you responded to can't update a market order every 2 seconds for 20 minutes straight, I can't do it, neither can you... nobody can.

That he was using a bot to accomplish this is not in question.

There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Demanding information that one has no business knowing and then stomping the foot shouting "BUT I WANNA !", throwing a childish tantrum in full public view is truly and thoroughly embarrassing.

I am almost embarrassed myself just from watching.

And you can't prove it can be done...

I have evidence. CCP says the guy was botting. He was botting. It's really that simple.

-Liang

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.

Slippery slope much? And no proof you know of equals no proof exists?
You seem to lose coherence.

Judge Sreegs isn't corrupt as you try to make us belief.

Just because you can't do it and people you know can't do it != someone else can't do it. Some people are flat out incredible around a keyboard. If you watched a really high end pro gamer, you can sometimes see them move their hands and react at speeds that seem impossible to many people. If the speed of the transactions was the question and nothing else, unless it was like an order every half second, that kind of speed alone isn't evidence to anything. Ignorance to other people's abilities is NOT evidence to anything nor should EVER be used as such. Unless they had physical evidence he was botting by actually detecting the programs he used or something along those lines? Then frankly its an overstep. If they had such evidence, then yeah, the guy is on the wrong and it should be dropped.

Frankly though them not removing the ISK in the first place was ridiculous either way.

Sreegs says the fact that the player in question was botting cannot be disputed. You obviously do not believe Sreegs. If Screegs produces evidence, what stops you from doubting it? You clearly do not think Sreegs is of good character because his word at this point in time is insufficient.

Of course, CCP are never going to release their detection methods: that is only going to make it easier for botters to evade detection.

We are left with trusting CCP and, if we do not, voting with our wallets. Frankly Kelduum is destroying what credibility he had left which, for me, is very sad to see. At one point in time I thought he was above using EVE University as his own private army of righteous indignation.

An oversight that they fixed.

You seem to have profound and unrepairable issues with CCP's word and trustworthyness about their official statements.

Why are you still playing a game when you don't trust their official word?

Let's suppose for a moment that you were in CCP's place. You have a player that you can PROVE was botting. Yes, prove. Beyond any shadow of any possible doubt, ever. In a court of law if you needed or wanted to. But you ****** up and didn't take away his ISK before his suspension was over and he gave it all to a CSM member/friend and ragequit.

The CSM member makes a petition asking if he can keep the ISK, and no he really can't. Whoops. Now the CSM member is doing everything in his power to torpedo you and permanently damage the company you work for. He's claiming his friend didn't bot and is actively defending the man's good character. He's trying to hold his CSM status over your head and his influential position over the subs of hundreds of new players over you to force you to let him keep the ISK. He's got all his frieds and trying to wield the power of his corp to do the same.

Now, what would you do?

-Liang

Ed: Remember, this is a high profile case and will probably be "precedent setting". Allowing the proceeds from bot-gathering-donated-to-friends to remain in game has obvious consequences.

No damage at all was done, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

CCP Sreegs is not guilty of causing that damage. Kelduum is.

John was botting. Really. I mean it. This is a provable thing, and CCP only bans on 150% proof.

-Liang

He was told multiple times why it was removed and as with every case the details of the case will not be shared with anyone other than the offender.

thing is, 3 years ago I would recomend eve-u to any noob that wanted to learn stuff.

nowadays and specially with this crap? hell better get your teaching somewhere.

dunno, eve-U definitely wasn't like this in the past, and stuff changed with Keldrum, so, personal opinion is that the issue is Keldrum, not eve-u.

Can someone explain to me, without using any derogatory language, or calling others names, why we are all hating on Keldrum?

It just so happens that this one thing that we don't like has a detrimental affect on the game & it's players, and don't forget that people are pretty quick to condem a goon or TEST member for doing one thing that they don't like. Don't try to pretend that it's not the case.

Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.

Out of game services using isk, which are perfectly acceptable as they do not manipulate the client or relate to anything ingame beyond 'press butan, receive ship. You know you could find out all of this information for yourself right? For a corporation that prides itself on teaching people about the game, they seem to be doing an amazing amount of not teaching you about the game. Considering what has come to light this day, I am not surprised

He wasn't only reading the game cache.

He was botting.

There's a difference. ;-)

-Liang

CCP does, and that's all that matters.

Sure, here's some proof:
- The guy's ISK was deleted
- The guy was banned
- The guy didn't get reimbursed
- There were 6 petitions that all ended the same way
- Sreegs has flat out said he was botting

The guy was botting.

-Liang

You sound like you're making your opinion objective.

I can say objectively that detecting botting in a game is generally very easy. I'm honestly surprised that CCP is as "lenient" as they are. Even my bosses are way more lenient than me. I'd personally just ban them all.

-Liang

Sorry, thats not the way this works.

All you 'defenders' of 'John' seem to have missed the bit (Which Kelduum posted in his very first post on Eve Uni forums) that CCP asked 'John' for his programs, & John provided them, and CCP then made the call that he was botting with them.

Nigh on every single case that uses evidence in a court will appoint an expert witness whose sole job it is to tell the Judge and Jury what the evidence means, because as a lay-person they're unable to interpret the evidence. The judge/jury have little scope other than to accept what the expert witness says as proof.

Oh wait, I'm sorry, were you just aiming for petty rhetoric?

It's worth mentioning Sreegs isn't "making an argument" or "stating an opinion" he is reporting the result of an investigation.

To say otherwise is basically assuming he banned an innocent player and THIS IS ALL A HUGE CONSPIRACY GUYS!!!

Frankly, I have come to expect the latter from the posters in this thread.

No, the 100% no false positives part is easy. It's detecting them at all that's hard.

-Liang

Clutching at straws here.
And you either know it, or need some serious education in logic & reason.
Also a lesson in Occams Razor (Spelling of name blah, tired).

Or he decided to help CCP in exchange for a lighter punishment. It wouln't be the first exploit someone has freely handed over.

K.

You must live in some parallel universe where the members of the jury examine the blood samples, perform an analysis, and come to the conclusion that the evidence as presented is evidence, and not just someone saying this here is evidence of this here crime.

Because unless that is what happens in your universe, yes, you very well are taking someone's word for it.